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Evolving Insurance

Our regular Evolving Insurance calls can connect your business with the latest in regulation, technology and insights, allowing you to be at the forefront of the industry. Discover our recent sessions below.

Instant payments and 24/7 treasury

The payments landscape is changing and evolving at a rapid rate and instant payments are now common place. During this call, we explored what this means for the industry, including the evolution of Faster Payments and SEPA, API connectivity and Open Banking, the impact of the New Payments Architecture and the advent of 24/7 treasury.

HENRY GIBBON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us for the latest evolving insurance call. This time it's going to be a little bit different - we're also joined by our clients and colleagues from the asset management sector. Our kind of thinking there is premium collections and claims payments have a lot of synergies and are quite analogous to subscriptions and redemptions. The challenges and the opportunities that these two types of firms face are very similar, often, so we felt that it was good to join the two together. So today we're going to discuss the growing prevalence of instant payments and their knock-on impact on treasury and the payment landscape itself. So we're going to have a look how this relates to Open Banking, API connectivity, the new payment architecture, and ultimately does this really herald the beginning of a 24/7 treasury function?

So with no further ado, today I'm joined by my colleagues Nicky Coyne and Lewis Glaze-Adams from our product teams to give us some insight to all of these questions. You'll have to bear with us - today we're using some new technology, hence you can see us on video. Just a few housekeeping points to that one. You can ask questions at any time and we'd really encourage that. Please do - there's a little box down in the bottom left. You can pop that up and Lewis, Nicky and myself will be able to see that and we'll look to go through those answers live as we kind of go through this. Anything that we don't get to, you know, that might be a bit too in-depth, we'll certainly get back to you on that afterwards. It should take around half an hour, perhaps a touch longer, if I can stop myself gassing on! And then I guess the last part is we're going to do some poll questions as well - a little bit interactive. You should see one popping up on your screen now. Do feel free to answer - it'll be interesting to kind of get a little bit of audience participation as we go through this. But I suppose let's - let's kick off and we'll go to the first of the kind of questions and topic points that I really wanted to ask, or we wanted to ask around here, and this is really around instant payments I think you could say now are kind of ubiquitous in their use, particularly in the personal finance space, where we kind of expect to send payments instantaneously and receive payments instantaneously. But, Lewis, with that said, could you give us a bit of a potted history to the evolution of instant payments, looking at that with the kind of UK lens first and how Faster Payments have developed in the UK?

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Yes, absolutely, thank you, and I'll try not to dwell on it all too much, keep me honest. So, um, bit of background.  So we all know what Faster Payments is and how it's come about. It was the first 24/7 real-time payment processing option in the UK.  So it opened up previously inaccessible weekends for those kind of electronic transfers. It started back in 2008, in May, so it must be about the anniversary anytime now, with 13 members with a limit - a payment limit of £10,000. That then went through a journey of increases for September 2010, it went to 100,000 a payment, and it got to what it is now today at £250,000 a payment in November 2015. Now, there are discussions and many of you, no doubt, will have heard going on at the moment which are still subject to going through the Bank of England and other approvals to increase that limit further. So at the moment there is no guarantee that that'll happen, but it's a natural progression, arguably, for instant payments to start progressing upwards, particularly in the context, as Henry mentioned, of stuff like MPA in the future and what – you know, what's it going to look like as these things get more and more prevalent in terms of their use and uses.

It actually might be good if I share one slide to try and really hit home...

 HENRY GIBBON: Yeah, of course.

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: ..how much Faster Payments has kind of accelerated and taken huge payment volume in the UK. What you see on the screen there is - at the bottom you've got CHAPS volumes.  CHAPS obviously being a same-day payment option. It is really low in volume. If I plotted values on here, this would look very different. CHAPS values are huge. But this is just purely volumes and in blue what you've got there is BACS direct credit, so the comparable transfer of value that you're sending out there via BACS on a three-day solution, versus the purple line which is your Faster Payments and that includes things like standing orders and other stuff, but still nevertheless pushing of payments - the majority of it is things that will execute on the same day. So you can see it's only a couple of years ago that Faster Payments has actually accelerated and then blown through BACS, as BACS volumes arguably decline - and this is whole-of-market level. So that growth doesn't look to be slowing - even through, you know, COVID-19, that year, last year, the Faster Payments volumes and growth was robust.  It hit a bit of a wobble for a short period of time, but it has carried onwards and upwards.  So I guess that kind of illustrates, I think, without doing too much, on where we've been.

HENRY GIBBON: OK, well, thanks, Lewis, that's really useful. Nicky, it’d be interesting to kind of work out how the SEPA journey has kind of unfolded comparable to that. Has it been particularly different?

NICOLA COYNE: Well, as you all know, it - it started much later. So it went live in November 2017, and it's - again, like Faster Payments - 24/7/365. It's even faster, so it's end-to-end in ten seconds. But it has only launched as an optional scheme, so, yeah, we started - like Faster Payments, we started low, we started with €15,000, but we've got to €100,000 already last July. No further changes planned, although some countries have chosen to go to an unlimited amount. So the Netherlands went straightaway to an unlimited amount in the domestic space, which is quite interesting. So where SEPA itself, um, the more classic solution, as it were, has - is processing over 20 billion SEPA credit transfers a year - it was 21.6 in 2019, took a big dip for COVID, but it's now recovering nicely - SEPA Instant is growing fast. I'd say it’s got a steeper curve than if you look at the slide on slide 4. I'd say the curve for - given that it's a very young scheme is probably steeper than Faster Payments and it's now up to 9% of combined payment volumes in euros. It's a challenge, because it's a cross-border scheme, so it goes across the 36 SEPA countries and so it's not as easy to sort of take it up, you know, there is a spread. Now, of the 36 countries, it's in 23, you know, big tick - some bank has taken it up. But in 12 countries now the majority of bank accounts can be reached. So Germany, France, Spain, et cetera, you've got a really good reach now there and that's accounting for a lot of the payment volumes. If you look at, say, Ireland, take-up is very low. I mean that's all, you know, changing – you know, through the months as we go, but very country-based at the moment.

HENRY GIBBON: OK, I mean looking at those charts you've both shown us, that's some pretty - pretty impressive growth. What's kind of really behind driving that growth, perhaps, on both sides? It would be interesting just to hear quickly.

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: If I - I'll do Faster Payments first. So I guess the historic growth is a couple of big factors for Faster Payments and you’d be unpacking it a lot. So you saw that there was a decline in some BACS volumes there, BACS direct credit, and I think it's fair to say that, you know, we certainly see use cases where there's a market demand, so an end client user demand for getting their money earlier, right? We're all - if you take it in the context of an environment where we all expect everything now, now, now, that's translating into payment expectations even at a corporate or customer level. So, I don't know, if you take the example of - you see it in the merchant acquirer space, right? You see instead of settlements happening all the time, there's options now, instead of taking your - you know, your merchant acquirer settlement via BACS and getting it a few days later, you can have it the next day with Faster Payments.  So why wouldn't you want access to your liquidity earlier, you know, if - if that's something your business needs, or rather, your end customers need in their example. But then you get brand-new use cases like, you know, you've got - wallets were created, right, the concept of wallets, and that kind of thing took off, there's big providers of that and you can use - Faster Payments was a natural vehicle there to start pushing money into those, or equally, in more reality, defunding your wallets back into your conventional current accounts, so that kind of transfer of value into those other accounts. You could also see it as potentially, you know, more people multi-bank now with - some people have, you know, some of the Challenger bank accounts and other ones and spread their funds between those. And then, you know, we'll come on to it later, but you're probably starting to see the impacts of things like API connectivity driving different kind of end user experiences for push payments, meeting new demands that previously just haven't existed because they - the connectivity wasn't widespread enough to enable it. Um, another actually good one to point out, and probably helped the volumes during the pandemic and hopefully relevant to some of our audience today is, you know, if you were doing claims settlement via cheque, obviously people couldn't necessarily get into the banks to cash said cheques so, you know, moving to a Faster Payment thing delivers a better experience for your customers in terms of them getting their money earlier, being happy, and then, yeah, so that probably led to a decline in cheques and an increase in payments as well.

NICOLA COYNE: Yeah, and I'd say, you know, similar messages on the SEPA side. It's about the new - new innovation, wallets, et cetera, and I would say that it's easier to migrate from SEPA to SEPA Instant than, say, from BACS to Faster Payments, because you're on the same format. So a client who wants to make payments, it's a very easy switch.

HENRY GIBBON: Thanks, Nicky. I think one other point to note there is, you know, direct corporate access for Faster Payments, you know, piggy-backing off, kind of, BACS processes…

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Yeah.

HENRY GIBBON: ..that have been set up I think can be quite a popular way and it does talk to that same kind of idea of, you know, it being the same route. I know that's not necessarily the same within the UK, but we'll get on to that in a little bit. So I guess the next part is if we're saying instant payments are that phrase that everybody loves to hate, the 'new normal', how does kind of the advent of Open Banking and sort of API connectivity really relate to that? But perhaps just quickly, could you just tell us what they are? I think the phrases are bandied around quite a lot, but what do we actually mean by Open Banking and how does that relate to the API connectivity piece?

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Cool, yeah, OK, I'll keep - I'll keep the context really brief on this. So Open Banking being a facility whereby in the UK, and Europe for that matter, you can enable a client to go on a push payment journey. So you're going to empower them with a link of some description, or - whether that's in a payment gateway or otherwise that will push them into a user experience whereby they select the bank that they want to send the money from, they choose their account, information is pre-populated and they push that payment to you. So that's using licensed entities to facilitate that movement. But also in terms of your account information as well, so they can - it's not just about pushing payments, it's about seeing account balances and names on accounts and things like that as well - with permission of the owner at all times. And then I know that we'll cover off just a bit of context on request to pay, so that’s just a structured – that’s a method for facilitating a push payment, so a structured way, or used in the context of Open Banking as well at some point, so I know we'll come on - so they kind of overlap, but they’re - requests for payments that we talk about are not payments, they're a request for a payment journey to begin. So that gives a bit of context of what Open Banking, and very briefly on request to pay, are.

NICOLA COYNE: Yeah, and you know, there's request to pay which you can do via Open Banking or you could do request to pay via the schemes - so pay.uk, European Payments Council in Europe have offered this structured messaging service, which is also – you know, as Lewis says, it’s not a method of payment but it's to - you result in a payment to satisfy the request that has been issued. It allows conversations between, say, a biller and a payer. So the main hurdle to overcome with those main schemes that are from the payment – the scheme bodies is that you need a reachable customer base for the corporates. So in the UK, as opposed to Open Banking, it's an opt-in service which - so - and Open Banking is always available. If the bank's on the Open Banking registry, then you can reach your clients. But the register - the scheme solutions require registration. So that's the slight difference, really.

HENRY GIBBON: OK, I mean that's useful, because it's something that I sometimes get confused about there, but effectively we're saying Open Banking is kind of banks being forced, perhaps for want of a better word, to open up their back office infrastructure to allow kind of third parties to manipulate some of that piece, and then you have the payment schemes that kind of sit alongside that, but it's very different, but in the fact that you can use Open Banking to kind of interact on all parts of that. I guess that's - that's really interesting, but sort of from our - from the insurance perspective and our asset managers' perspective, would it be all right if you perhaps just gave some sort of case studies around adoption of schemes like this? I know you said that that's sort of in its infancy on some parts, particularly around request to pay, but how they might actually go about using – using that kind of functionality. I think just quickly before we did that, very interestingly you were talking around the API piece and the poll question has come back in which was, very quickly, “In your current strategy, by the end of 2023, will you be processing your instant payments manually, bulk file upload, or API?” And very interestingly, 12% manual, 40% bulk file upload, but I'm really surprised that you’re getting a really high, you know, supposed potential use of API, which is good to see - 45%. So you know, it's obviously something that people are really keen to adopt. But sorry, Nicky, I think it's back to you just around - or Lewis, back to you, around kind of some of those case studies that might bring that to life for us.

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Yeah, no, absolutely, that is interesting, and, like, pleasing to see as well because I think there's some exciting opportunities there, which we'll go into, because I mean very well and good having these things, but why would you be interested in push payments instead of other solutions? Well, I mean a big one would be the fact you are avoiding card rail fees particularly when you’re claiming value, right, so that is going to be a huge - huge driver for this uptake there for sure with people.

So in terms of - there's one other kind of piece of technology that's needed, or is fundamental to a lot of these connectivities and that's your APIs, your Application Programme Interfaces, will add by – you know, it’s enabling that kind of real-time, instant, ‘dum-dum-dum’, get things out the door, you know, enable real-time user experience and feedback, so - and that really does underpin these things. I think if we just - you go on to the final slide there, it kind of brings two knitted use cases together a bit here, I think, in that if you take the insurance claim settlement one - and again, I'm really not trying to teach people to suck eggs, the audience knows this business much better than I do, but if you imagined a scenario whereby – you know, an experience I had was a surveyor came out to assess some water damage in my house, gave me a piece of paper, even though they had an iPad that they were doing input on, gave me a piece of paper with the claim settlement amount on there that I was offered. I then needed to phone up the number, accept that claim, give some details and then I got a payment through BACS and then I could finally get this issue sorted which I had, you know, water damage and a piece of ceiling missing for that whole period of time, right? But what if you had a scenario whereby you’re utilising APIs here? You don't even need to go down the Open Banking element on this one. Is that you have payment initiation APIs whereby you, I don't know, set a limit on your surveyors, what they can pay out, and they go, “OK”, on the iPad or whichever other perfectly good tablet solutions there are out there, you can offer them - offer your client the claim, it’s already got their numbers and details in there, which could either, if they wanted to and you had the flexibility, you could pay it back onto a card, but ideally you’d be pushing a Faster Payment, as an example, out to a sort code and account number which they would confirm.  So you’d say, “Do you accept this, are these your account details that you’re happy to provide?”, “Yes”, “Sign digitally here”, boom, Faster Payment API initiated, straight out of your account into theirs, they open their bank account, they can see the money’s there, case closed, no need for phone calls back, none of that - potentially a much more efficient and appealing service. You know, and I'm not saying that that doesn't exist out there today, I just – it’s just not been my experience. I don't know who's doing that, but I would love to!

And if we look at the kind of asset side of things, if you use - now we're going to go in and really knit these things together like APIs, Open Banking, request to pay, what could you do with that? So the service is not just to be able to initiate the payments, but also to be able to look at account information. So let's say that most of your clients are, I don't know, to make an assumption and say we know they're paid roughly at this time of the month, and they give you 90 days' rolling permission to look at their account balances because they trust you, you know, you’re looking after their future. Future investments, future funds, you know, so there's already a trust element there. So then you say, “Do you want us to do that?”, “Yeah”. And then you see at a certain time of the month after their bills have gone out that they've got excess funds that month, for example, coming just before pay day. You push a request out to them via the Open Banking type solutions which, you know, you can call – call an API, get a link, you know, to embed in an email, to embed in an SMS, to send out as a QR code, whichever you prefer, and it just says, “We noticed you” - you know, “Have you considered topping up your investment account, it could look like this in the future if you did”, for example. They then think, “Oh that's a great idea”, rather than going and blowing it on something else or sitting it in a savings account earning nought-point-nothing. “Yes”, opens up their banking app, “I'll send it from that account”. You've pre-populated the reference on this, and that's a really important thing - you control the references here. So you control your ability to reconcile efficiently. No more, you know, major utility company getting "Gas bill" as the reference on a payment that’s been pushed into their account, for example, or "Insurance payment." So they then top your account up. So it's giving you the ability to prompt, to know your customer, to get extra funds which you otherwise wouldn't have had, potentially. So I think those are two reasonable examples, all underpinned, like I said, by Open Banking, request to pay, and request to pay type solutions, and API.

HENRY GIBBON: Cool, thanks, Lewis. Look, guys, we're getting quite a few questions through here, which is really good, so I'm just going to bat a few of those at you guys, so sorry for that! But one of them was, there's quite a lot of information here and sometimes it can be sort of quite hard to see the wood for the trees, but really what do insurance companies or asset managers need to consider to take advantage of this? What do you think the key points are?

NICOLA COYNE: Right, so, yeah, if we think about that. So I think obviously there's the integration of the API into automated back office systems. There's no more opportunity for manual input there. So yeah, there's a piece of integration there. And look at moving away from bulk files, you know - today it's a sort of - you've got your overnight process, you prepare a bulk file, you deliver it to the bank. It's moving away sort of end-to-end from that process, but thinking about firing out transactions as and when they're ready, it helps to smooth out intraday funding needs and you can offset receipts against outbound payments. So that's, you know, a really important point. And then looking at invoice processing end-to-end. You've got the real potential to result in faster settlements. So if you've got - so where you've got a payer in difficulty, all the flavours of requests to pay offer the chance to build a relationship and get some money on a different date, different amount, but rather than nothing at all. So you can really improve your working capital needs, because you'll start to get your money in sooner, faster, et cetera. Do you need to look at incentivising your customers to use push payments? You know, would you share the benefit if you're, as Lewis said, you know, getting rid of your card fees, could you reduce - you know, reduce the cost, so incentivise the customer to use the new methods?

Other side - looking at the other side of things, look at the reporting changes. Use APIs to get real-time balance and transaction reporting so you know exactly when a customer has paid you, so on the investment side you can invest their funds faster, or issue documents for insurance straightaway. So you can - if you know real-time what's happening, you can – you can act on it. One thing you do have to be careful about, I think, is fraud. More low-value payments could trigger some - a lot of alerts in your current set-up. So you know, instant payments are a good target for fraudsters, they know they can move money on faster, so you really do need to look at security in that end-to-end payment flow. I think that's really important.

HENRY GIBBON: Interesting that you say that, Nicky, because we've had a lot of questions through around kind of the security considerations around APIs and just, you know, what you have to think about there. So I think, you know, thinking through that payment pathway and exactly how you're interacting with your clients is fundamental to getting this right. But a really interesting challenge on the questions, as well, is kind of like a lot of back office optimisation and automation in, you know, in our firms as we well know has been directly using bulk files from ERP or treasury systems and, you know, sending it out as a batch process, which is hugely efficient compared to other ways. Do we - is it really the death of that? I mean it seems a bit - I'm just interested in it?

NICOLA COYNE: Yeah, I think, you know, I think, yes, the fearmongers and doom-mongers would say so, but I certainly don't think so in the near-term. I mean, let's be realistic, not all use cases need instant, individual payment instructions. I think batch has still got a place, you know. Salary runs - apart from, you know, temporary workers, contractors, et cetera, the salaried staff you'd pay via batch. You know, you've got their details, you know, you can schedule it. You know, standard invoice settlements, the same. But you don't have to go launching, you know, right from one solution, you know, a bulk, right to API for everything. You know, both have a place. So I think it's a journey and in the near-term, batch is here to stay. So...

HENRY GIBBON: OK, cool. Just in the interests of time, just one of the things I know people are really interested to find out about is the implications of the new payment architecture and kind of what actually is it, how does it relate to all this, and what should people be watching out for or expecting? I think the context of this often comes around people are kind of upgrading their systems, implementing new ERP systems, they want to make sure that they're futureproofing their kind of treasury function. What do they need to bear in mind about - about the new payment architecture for that?

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Yeah. So I think first is, don't panic. It's a good thing! So a bit of context. So new payment architecture is just about the redesigning of the UK's payment infrastructure - not CHAPS, we're talking about Faster Payments and eventually BACS likelihood now, but certainly looking at, you know, Faster Payments as the focus here. So it’ll be where your messaging format transitions to what you'll hear called ISO 20022, which is also called ISO XML, which is also referred to in the SWIFT world as MX - all mean the same thing, it’s just designed to confuse us! Not at all! So don't panic if you hear them referred to different things. It’s a – it’s a schema, so it's just a, “This is a field, this is what you put in there; this is a field, this is what you put in there” and it's exactly what you have to do today, just slightly different and more structured, which will benefit all of the users in multiple different ways. So – ‘cause today, for example, you know, you've got BACS which is limited to 18 characters in the field, so you can only put 18 characters of reference in. Faster Payments has two capabilities of reference field. XML have so much more. I mean we could even be talking about the ability to add attachments eventually to payments in the future. So you could issue, you know, your confirmation - you know, purchase order approval with it, or whatever you wanted to do.

So in terms of what it'll do, it's early days. Pay UK are doing a fantastic job at designing this and consulting with the industry, and recognise the significance of the BACS system still in terms of a batch and a bulk solution, because I know we just mentioned that. So when it comes around, you'll still - you'll still be able to submit payments to banks, likely in different formats other than just XML. It'll just mean that you may need to consider how you pass certain information on to the banks, right? So there's likely going to be change, depending on the - what mandated new fields or mandated format within those fields is given. So, for example, you could find an introduction of a purpose at payment becomes mandatory for certain things. So you just have to add that. Not necessarily relevant specifically to our audience today but, you know, house completions. You may have to tag that it's a house completion, because there’s - today with Faster Payments you don't use that for house completions, but in the new design you might be able to with one of the options.

And things like structured addresses. I mentioned XML effectively gives you more structure so, you know, you're gonna have better views of references, you're gonna have better views of the details of the person that sent you that money, but it also means that you're going to have to send your details out in those messages. Now, many of your providers will no doubt try to take that heavy lift off of you and just verify your address, store it within their systems and send that out on your behalf, again, easing – easing the load, and those kind of details will become more apparent for everybody. I'd just encourage you to talk, you know, with your - with your payment provider and see how they - their current plans. I know we've got a really good team working on that on our side. But fundamentally, it's - it’s going to be a really good thing. It'll futureproof us and it'll align us with the rest of the world. So SWIFT’s making the transition. Nicky already said SEPA’s on – on those solutions. So I think it’ll be really positive in terms of what kind of other innovations it can offer you. So could it – could it be smart payment routing in the future, you know? You say, “This is the purpose of the payment, this is the amount, this is where I want it to go and by when,” and we will – you know, we can send it the cheapest way for you based on the – what we’ve agreed. So again, just adding value for you is basically what it'll enable.

HENRY GIBBON: OK, so I mean I'm hearing, sort of, don't panic.

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Timeline-wise, yeah!

HENRY GIBBON: Timeline-wise, there's a fair bit of time. It's going to be - it's going to be a good thing with kind of simplification and harmonisation, but probably worth considering now if you are sort of in the process of upgrading or implementing any changes.

NICOLA COYNE: Yeah.

HENRY GIBBON: And I probably just would mention on the call that, you know, we're covering a lot of information here, hopefully just trying to give a highlight to it, and you know, sometimes that might be quite - quite a lot of info to take on onboard. Just do reach out to your, you know, your usual relationship director, or your contact point at Barclays if you’d like to carry on these conversations, you know, really happy to do that. But sorry, Nicky, I was talking over to you, what did you want to say?

NICOLA COYNE: No, I was just going to say I think it's right, Lewis, there's no expectation of going live before about 2024, is there?

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Yeah.

NICOLA COYNE: And I think our only major point was, as you said, that if you're making changes in the meantime in your ERP system, consider gathering the information before then because it will be encouraged to supply it from the start, but there's plenty of time. So that's all.

HENRY GIBBON: OK, cool. So I guess perhaps, you know, one of the questions to finish it off and perhaps what we almost started the premise on is, there's a huge amount of change going on here and a lot of it is about instant real-time, 24/7 payments. What do we think the impact of this is going to be? Do you really think it's the advent of 24/7 treasury? What do people need to think about here I guess is the question? It's quite a large one, but interested in your thoughts on that.

NICOLA COYNE: Yeah, I mean, it is a natural question about what does it mean for treasury operations. I think that, back to my original point, not all payments need to move faster. So I think it's a question of looking at, you know, what's the objective of making that payment? And to Lewis's point, you know, can you leverage your payment provider to make that decision for you to make smart payments? You tell them what, you know, what the elements of the payment are and then they can offer up the choice to you. But I think, you know, faster, more data-rich payments come likely at a higher cost than the multi-day well-established options like BACS, which has less data. Think about whether you really need that extra data or speed in all cases. You know, so a balancing act there. I think, yeah, visibility’s key. Your treasury management system needs to link to the banks to get the intraday reporting, or even real-time information provision, because if you've got all that information, you could consider, you know, looking at liquidity impacts of the information - the payments you're making, which are faster, the payments you're receiving. You won't just be relying on daily forecasting anymore. I think you're going to need to move to real-time forecasting and look at the liquidity impacts. So real-time treasury, I think, during the working day for the moment. But there will be a big impact, I think, on intraday liquidity and I think working with the banks on that one to, you know, to talk together about the implications of that will be important.

I think, as for the 24/7 bit, I think, you know, let's - you know, other areas are being automated, why not treasury bots in the future? You set the rules for the system to automatically execute against the treasury policy that you've fed into the system. You know, you could pay down your overdraft first, any remaining funds move to an interest-bearing current account or an investment. You can't yet invest outside the working day - there's still an end-of-day concept out there and that's going to remain for accounting purposes, I think, for a fair time to come, and for sweeping. But that end of day concept will get closer to midnight. So, you know, automation, I think, has to be the way forward, rather than flogging your treasurers to stay longer in the office! So I think it's key - you know, key to work with your bank to, you know, adopt the new approaches successfully, I think, in a collaborative way.

HENRY GIBBON: OK. Look, that's - I think that's super useful, and I think it's probably a continuing conversation, rather than sort of a point in time. There have been tons of questions that have come through on the – on the Q&A, which is fab. Look, pragmatically, we’re not going to get through them all now, but what we will do is we'll make sure that your relationship contact point knows those ones so we can kind of pick those up with you offline. One of the bits that did come through that might be interesting for everybody is, do we have a rough roadmap of timelines around here so people can look at this? I know it's a moving feast, so I know you won't particularly like me asking that question, but is there, you know, are there dates and stuff we can share? Perhaps it's something that we can pull together and send out afterwards, I don't know, or is it too much - are we too early doors for that at the moment?

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: About the whole piece, is that?  Yeah so…

HENRY GIBBON: Yeah, just around kind of, you know, the different payment functionality coming in, the payment architecture and when it's landing, that kind of thing?

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Yeah, I mean, like Nicky said, new payment architecture live likely 2024 some point, so that's not imminent at all and the details are still being fleshed out, so we – we’ll have materials we can share, but they won't necessarily give you massive detail at the moment because that's still being confirmed. But in terms of your Open Banking journeys that we were talking about, right - sending those payment links out and those kind of things. So that exists now and could be part of somebody's strategy now to look to do those things. So you can create those requests for payment examples, you know, the ones we used in the slides today using that opening banking underpinning it all.

NICOLA COYNE: Yeah, and taking a wider view on sort of new payments architecture in the UK, but sort of other – other countries' journeys towards ISO XML, certainly we can share a roadmap on that because, yes, we have pulled together the main schemes and what's happening when. So I think we could probably share that one.

HENRY GIBBON: OK, brilliant. Well thanks. I guess we've probably come to our time. We're perhaps even a little bit over, but, Lewis, Nicky, I just want to say thank you very much for providing us this insight. I guess thanks to everybody that's joined the call. Hopefully you found it useful. There will be a replay that's also sent round, so if there's somebody you think that would be interested that would like to listen in, you know, you can point them in that direction. We’ve got some extra questions here as well, so we'll look to come out and answer those, too, perhaps on a – sort of on an individual basis, and look, if you want to carry this conversation on with us and perhaps get more specific on it, or dive into something in more detail, really, really happy to do that. But, Nicky, Lewis, if you don't have anything else to add, I think we'll close the call there.

NICOLA COYNE: Yes, that’s great.

LEWIS GLAZE-ADAMS: Thank you.

NICOLA COYNE: Thank you.

HENRY GIBBON: Thanks very much.

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